Workflows with Markdown

[matt]

@Dormouse

Apple offered developers the advantage of a captive high-paying market which encouraged the growth of a small number of very high quality programs. I understand the attraction, but have always been wary of lotus eating.

I’ll check out your website.

Drifting a long way off topic, but when I first started working on Aeon Timeline, Apple offered something much more valuable than that: an ecosystem of users who respected and appreciated indie developers, and an operating system who nurtured that because they understood it was something that set them apart from Microsoft. Apple’s developer tools were free when Microsoft was still charging thousands of dollars.

The App Store is something I accept I must live within rather than something I truly embrace. It probably has led to some increased market exposure for the app ecosystem in general, as it has led to more users who are reminded that “there is probably an app for that”… but it has also driven prices and perhaps quality down in the process (good apps take years to develop, and the App Store model does not encourage that investment).

[matt]

@Dormouse

• I use Mindomo to play with ideas and relationships. It’s not always my first stage - often I’ll come to it (or similar techniques) to work things out after making a start.
• Plottr seems designed for pulp fiction series; I use it to help structure sections and chapters, watching elements and themes across the narrative.

One of the things we are aiming to do with Aeon Timeline 3 is unify some of those tools a little bit with the introduction of the Narrative and Outline views for mapping those chapters and scenes, and Mindmap View for that initial idea sketching.

We are aiming for the experience of “Create the data once, and it is available everywhere”, rather than chopping and changing between different apps and trying to pull it all together.

So again, this is perhaps a different topic, but I would be interested to understand any gaps in those features within Aeon Timeline 3 that are better covered by Mindomo or Plottr, so that we can help unify that whole experience.

@Dormouse

So, my ideal workflow for that would be that they import/export/synchronise those fields with an originating markdown file.

I guess understanding what format that Markdown file should take would be a challenge.

I could picture it being relatively easy, for instance, to take a Timeline Narrative and turn it into markdown – each step down the tree using progressively smaller headers, with perhaps the item summaries being included as text in between that you could then extend into your writing.

Pulling back out of that structure may be a little more difficult though.

The benefit of markdown is that it is text based and yet still potentially hierarchical.

Matt

[Dormouse]

@matt

Drifting a long way off topic, but when I first started working on Aeon Timeline, Apple offered something much more valuable than that: an ecosystem of users who respected and appreciated indie developers, and an operating system who nurtured that because they understood it was something that set them apart from Microsoft. Apple’s developer tools were free when Microsoft was still charging thousands of dollars

So true. And now Microsoft are heavily supporting open source developers and Apple erect little barriers between ‘their’ apps and other OSs.
Pure corporate strategy for all of them.

[Dormouse]

@matt

We are aiming for the experience of “Create the data once, and it is available everywhere”, rather than chopping and changing between different apps and trying to pull it all together.

So again, this is perhaps a different topic, but I would be interested to understand any gaps in those features within Aeon Timeline 3 that are better covered by Mindomo or Plottr, so that we can help unify that whole experience.

I’ll look out for that. I haven’t spent much time using the beta since nothing I was doing needed a timeline, and I’m not really in a position to comment yet.

Some things may be pure usability and personal preference. When I was checking out mindmap programs, I trialled all of them (have done periodically every half decade or so) in some depth. Mindomo was the only one I’m happy to use, and yet it doesn’t really look so very different to some of the others.

I’m probably in a position to start working on it now. Couple (more than a couple) of projects that might suit. I’ll keep you in touch.

PS
I’m not sure there’s much overlap between Timeline’s features and the way I use the other programs. Mindomo is a very freeform playing with nothing crystallised; could be a source for Timeline, but it seems unlikely I’d replace it with Timeline.
Plottr is very visual and mouse friendly. I can see potential overlaps (eg scenes and character & tag filters). It is set up for series, which Timeline isn’t (and that’s not relevant to me anyway). An initial glance at a Timeline import from Plottr (via Scrivener) seems okay only up to a point - no characters etc; can’t test in the other direction since Plottr doesn’t have an input yet.

I’m assuming that a Timeline export via Scrivener to md will work, but I haven’t tested that yet.

[Dormouse]

@matt

I guess understanding what format that Markdown file should take would be a challenge.

I could picture it being relatively easy, for instance, to take a Timeline Narrative and turn it into markdown – each step down the tree using progressively smaller headers, with perhaps the item summaries being included as text in between that you could then extend into your writing.

Pulling back out of that structure may be a little more difficult though.

I see the problem. I’m most interested in the information in Characters, Places, Arcs and Themes being synchronised. Events too. Timeline not so much since that will be much better presented in Aeon Timeline.

[matt]

@Dormouse

I see the problem. I’m most interested in the information in Characters, Places, Arcs and Themes being synchronised. Events too. Timeline not so much since that will be much better presented in Aeon Timeline.

Feel free to put together the type of format you would like to see, and we can see if it is something that might have general appeal.

Markdown is pretty simple, so a markdown export would be relatively easy for us to implement. The challenge is just working out a format that will satisfy enough users to warrant the effort.

I imagine we would definitely include a Markdown export of the narrative if we were to do it, because it makes a lot of sense to me to build a timeline, then construct a narrative in Aeon Timeline planning out your story, and then export that in Markdown so it can be pulled into another writing app to produce the actual text.

[Dormouse]

@matt

I imagine we would definitely include a Markdown export of the narrative if we were to do it, because it makes a lot of sense to me to build a timeline, then construct a narrative in Aeon Timeline planning out your story, and then export that in Markdown so it can be pulled into another writing app to produce the actual text

Potentially yes. But not necessarily. A narrative needn’t tie in with a timeline of events - for instance, if I were writing a report on something with a timeline, the report structure would likely be very different. Ditto histories. But it would usually be true in fiction.

[matt]

@Dormouse

A narrative needn’t tie in with a timeline of events - for instance, if I were writing a report on something with a timeline, the report structure would likely be very different.

The intent of the Narrative and Outline Views is that they are an independent structure and order from the chronological/timeline events, so I would expect the narrative would be a useful thing to build on your way to a markdown layout regardless of whether it is fiction or non-fiction, and closely connected to the timeline or not.

Of course, this will vary for different user’s preferences and workflows, and the exact nature of work, etc. but we are aiming to create something that is quite flexible in that regard.

Matt

[Dormouse]

@matt

The intent of the Narrative and Outline Views is that they are an independent structure and order from the chronological/timeline events

OK. Thanks. I’ll remember this when I’m testing those features.

[Dormouse]

@matt

The intent of the Narrative … Views

I’ve had a look and compared it to Plottr.
Plottr is much more visual and freeform; Timeline is more structured.
Depending on what I’m doing, I’m likely to have a strong preference for one or the other.
Further thought: I think Plottr would work for pantsers, Timeline not so much.

[Dormouse]

@ahansonauthor

If you are interested in the workflows of others, you are welcome to check my essential tools out under The Write Tools at andrewhansonwriter.com .

Thanks. I had a look at your site. Seems we both use ProWritingAid.
In terms of craft, having seen the books you list as being helpful and knowing you use Aeon Timeline, I suspect you fall on the planner part of the spectrum. In which case I’d recommend one, or both, of Steven James’ books (Story Trumps Structure, Troubleshooting Your Novel). He writes as a pantser and even makes sense of it, which can add an extra dimension to inveterate planners/plotters.
Not that I agree with everything he recommends, of course.

[ahansonauthor (Andrew Hanson)]

Thanks for the book recommendations. I will check them out. To be fair, I actually fall somewhere in between planning and pantsing.

Story is king for me. Structure is more of a way of making sure that story can be told in the most effective manner.

I use Truby’s book to work through my premise and my designing principle for a book. Then once I have an idea of the general story and the characters and themes I want to deal with, I use Coyne’s Story Grid method to build a basic skeleton. I tend to have the big scenes in my head and place them into my scene list. But I don’t necessarily know every single scene in the book before I start writing. I have a good idea how the book will end, what kind of self-actualisation the main character will go through. But there is still plenty for me to discover during the writing process. And of course things can change during the whole process.

I use Aeon to keep tabs of my overall structure and to check I’m including the necessary elements in scenes, that scenes are turning and creating character change in meaningful ways. And I use it to edit scenes I’ve written, as a kind of checklist to ensure a scene deserves its place in the overall book.

So my system leans towards planning (I write quite complex thrillers with many layers to them so a good handle on plot and genre conventions is important) but I also enjoy the discovery that some level of pantsing can bring.

[Dormouse]

@ahansonauthor

To be fair, I actually fall somewhere in between planning and pantsing

…

So my system leans towards planning … but I also enjoy the discovery that some level of pantsing can bring.

Like most writers, I suspect. I mentioned those books because nearly every book you see about craft advises how to plot and structure; very little suggests techniques for writing organically. I think it can be useful to see both sides, however far you are to one end of the spectrum. Sadly, I have noticed that they are very rarely available cheaply, even used paperbacks. He writes in a particular style, which I find grating except in small doses, but you can see what you think with the Look Inside.

[Rob]

But I think Aeon comes in handy for pantsers as well. My first novel wasn’t planned at all and this led to a lot of rewriting and editing. It’s particularly hard to keep an overview of such an organic and somewhat chaotic piece. I used Aeon after the first draft, not for planning ahead, to keep track of the storyline.
Meanwhile I plan much more, because I feel it makes my writing much more effective.

[Dormouse]

@Rob

I plan much more, because I feel it makes my writing much more effective

I’m not entirely sure that makes you a pantser.
But, yes, structuring can be done at any stage and often more than once.

[Dormouse]

@matt

Feel free to put together the type of format you would like to see, and we can see if it is something that might have general appeal.

Markdown is pretty simple, so a markdown export would be relatively easy for us to implement. The challenge is just working out a format that will satisfy enough users to warrant the effort.

Having thought about it, I’m entirely agnostic.
I’m happy with multiple separate .md documents.
I’m happy with one .md file with all content separated by headings of various levels.
I’m okay with doing it through Scrivener, even though that is an extra step and imposes its own constraints.
I agree that narrative ought to be part of it.

[Dormouse]

@Dormouse

@matt

what would be your ideal workflow?

• I use Mindomo to play with ideas and relationships. It’s not always my first stage - often I’ll come to it (or similar techniques) to work things out after making a start.
• Plottr seems designed for pulp fiction series; I use it to help structure sections and chapters, watching elements and themes across the narrative.
• I use Timeline only when there’s a timeline that matters.
• I use Excel, partly because I’ve used it for a long time before these other programs existed, but also because it’s a quick and easy way to write structured info.

@matt

I would be interested to understand any gaps in those features within Aeon Timeline 3 that are better covered by Mindomo or Plottr, so that we can help unify that whole experience.

Having tested Timeline 3 more, and thought about my workflows in real life, I’m not sure that there is any overlap in function.

• Mindomo is a variety of multicoloured shapes available on all OSs. Very useful for freeform brainstorming about anything.
• Plottr is simple and visual; applies a narrative sequence but does not imply the existence of a timeline - also available on all OSs.
• Timeline implies a strong underlying timeline structure, with links to the freeform elements. Less visual, not on Android.

I expect that, if there’s a timeline, I would use Timeline for everything except the writing; if there isn’t, I wouldn’t use it at all. Having started, I might find that there are features in the other programs I want to use, but I think I’d do that without recourse to moving data around.
Lack of Android would be an issue if I was doing a lot of work on mobile and I’d have to rely on the other programs then.

The biggest friction would come from Mindomo. I’d be using it at initial concept stage, nothing worked out, and might generate a fair amount of content in the process. Nothing else is as free, so they can’t replace it for that. But it’s export capability is good and it would be quite straightforward for me to put it into any other program. Once I’ve done the Mindomo stage, I usually have no need to return to it.

So no gaps (and I’ll let you know if I spot any) and I’d like a markdown export of some sort, but I can cope with export as it is.

[Rob]

I pantsted back then, but I wouldn’t consider me a pantster anymore.

[ahansonauthor (Andrew Hanson)]

Hi @Dormouse ,

I just wanted to say I have bought both of Steven James’ books and have started reading his first one, Story Trumps Structure. It is an interesting read so far, and in a lot of ways, it reminds me of the Story Grid method and John Truby’s book, both of which highlight the need for good storytelling over rigid structure. And Truby’s book is very similar to James’ in that it works through the elements needed to tell a good story. Such as setting the character in their world initially and not rushing through that part too quickly.

The second of Steven James’ books looks interesting also.

So thank you for the recommendations. I always like to have as wide an appreciation of books on Story as possible. Ultimately, a lot of these books work through the same principles packaged in a slightly different way. James is more of a pantser than Coyne and Truby but Coyne suggests only a brief skeleton needs to exist prior to the act of writing.

Whether pantser or plotter, Story is in my opinion the most important element of fiction. So I think Steven James and I will get along just fine.

[Jaran]

I don’'t write stories, nor novels or romans… But I do use Timeline for research and I use Markdown for all my research logs, research journals, research plans and Research notes… Yes I do split them…

Research journal

• Research Logs
• • Research Notes
• Research Plans
• • Research Notes

What I would like was a Text Editor/Markdown Editor that just opened my linked Markdown notes, and only “attacked” them when exporting a project/timeline.

I use Obsidian and Foam for VS Code + Joplin (for some tasks) as Markdown Editors because of the graph view, that is a really great way to find hidden links and relations in both structured and unstructured text only using the simple wiki-link syntax [[this is a link|with a alias]], I am also starting to look at Athens Research for the same reason, but that is still alfa.

If it was possible to link those markdown files in the existing folder structure, and edit them as files, I would be able to both use Aeon and my Markdown editor of choice to edit my research notes regardless of software… I also attack those files as media to other research software I use, and I have a work flow that includes Zotero…

To be able to view and edit those notes or creating new ones on disk in directly Aeon, would have been an excellent feature… No need for a lot of fancy stuff, all of that is already in Obsidian an other MD Editors…

To import those Markdown files as a narrative or timeline, would not benefit me and others that use markdown as research tools or writers tools and use Aeon as a research tool also much… Because we would end up with having to edit the same text in multiple files…