Writing, or Page, view, and a Narrative Panel

Feature Requests
#1

So we have the different Views like Timeline, Spreadsheet, or Outline, and I think it would be great to add in a ‘Writing’ or ‘Page’ view to make Aeon a bit of a writing software too. For me that probably will eliminate the need for Scrivener, even.

If you click on an item in Writing/Page View, all that pops up is a word processor page where you can, well, write or have a more indepth page about the chapter/character/item.

Adding in the new ‘export in text’ features that are coming up, it might even allow to export these as txt or word files as well.

Potentially we could also allow linking of things in the Writing/Page view (through [[wikilinks]] or @tags) that opens up their Inspector Panel on the side.

A Narrative Panel could be added too, that includes everything in the Narrative View, so that it’s easier to have the story-part a bit more separated from the other items, and you can then see those on the side panel too, and be able to flip through chapters or scenes in Page View while having it open.

Tagging @AeonRob because he’s new and cool, and I hope this gets seen and implemented.

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#2

You are singing my tune! Check out my posting two years ago: What Aeon Timeline could be.

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What Aeon Timeline could be
#3

I remember reading that post a while back. I was hopeful at the time, but it didn’t really gain too much traction, and so I moved on to thinking perhaps it would sync with Obsidian eventually. That is also in the air, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that well, Aeon really could just do it all with a few minor updates. It would be better than syncing with Obsidian or Scrivener, because it would all be together and integrated.

I was surprised how many people didn’t like your idea, by the way They were mentioning this overcomplicating things and taking away from the timeline feature, but I disagree strongly. It’s already a world-building and plotting tool. With the addition of Places and Characters and being able to add in-depth customization about all of these things, it’s everything I need… except if I want to write longer bits of text.

All I need is a very basic word-processor to open if I click an item/chapter in a certain view. That will make Aeon the only program I use 98% of the time I’m doing writing-stuff.

As of right now I have to sync with Scivener and open it up, and then some of the information isn’t in Scrivener, so I need Aeon open anyway, and when I make changes the other program yells at me to sync… it’s do-able, but seems needlessly complicated when ‘add the equivalent of Google Docs as a view’ would solve things.

If you don’t want to use the writing view, then you don’t have to. I don’t use the Relationship view at all, but some do, and it’s there if I ever change my mind. A word processor would just be another feature that could be there. Make it a tiny bit more robust, allow tables or images, eventually integrate it with mindmaps in a similar way to Obsidian’s Canvas and I literally won’t need anything else.

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#4

I’m afraid I remain one of the people who don’t think it’s a good idea for Aeon Timeline to add full writing functionality.

For me, it boils down to expertise in different fields. Both Ulysses and Scrivener have been developing their writing apps for over a decade (22 years in Ulysses’ case) and they have grown into powerful apps with all the quality of life features that make my life as a writer easier (goals, targets, revision mode, different export formats, annotations, comments, reference material, bibliography and citation management and footnotes etc etc). I wouldn’t expect these writing apps to focus their attention on developing the kind of timeline functionality that Aeon has developed, as it doesn’t fit in with their app’s strengths and focus. And I don’t think it is in Aeon’s interest to try to do what they do.

Of course, it could be made to work in Aeon, but I suspect it is a monumental development task if they want to develop anything remotely close to a professional writing studio. And if they aren’t aiming for that, and were to stop syncing with Scrivener or Ulysses, after providing a sub standard writing tool, I suspect more people would stop using Aeon entirely. Me included. Because ultimately Aeon is simply a tool that adds value to my main focus. Which is writing.

But I don’t speak for the developers and my view is really only my view. I tend to value tools for what they excel at and I like to use tools when they are best in class. My fear therefore remains that adding writing features would just water down Aeon’s strengths.

But what do I know?

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#5

I agree.
If those features are there, pressure will build to improve them. Diverting resources into competition with much bigger, already successful programs. While carrying a timeline albatross around the neck.

The vast majority of fiction writers never have a need for a timeline program. Even history writers rarely need something so detailed. And, in general, writers like relatively simple and intuitive interfaces whereas AT encourages a complex set up.

I don’t see that adding such features will bring new users. I can see that it would simplify life for some current users, if it is done well enough to make them give up their current programs. I already know that wouldn’t include me; partly because it would need to add a ton of new features, but mostly because the UI wouldn’t fit my needs when writing. But then, most of my timeline needs are simple and don’t require the number of options already in AT; for me, AT is something I use rarely and only when absolutely needed.

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Open summary in an editor window
#6

Syncing with Scrivener is a large part of Aeon. I don’t want them to stop doing this, and there is no need for them to stop even if this is added in. They already sync with two programs, adding a ‘third’ shouldn’t change how the first two work. It would just be an additional option.

I do think that a basic word processor, or a larger writing space view, could be of use for some. Especially those who don’t need all the extra stuff that the other programs have.

“Sync with Scrivener or Ulysses to use their full capabilites to explore your story, or just use our basic word processor to write down quick notes or a rough draft of a chapter.”

They don’t invalidate each other.

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#7

I guess this is the point I was trying to make. It would become a development nightmare. With ever increasing asks from users not content with a simple writing tool to make such a feature more like Scrivener.

This is my take on the idea. Ulysses is the closest I could get to having a writing augmentation hard wired into my brain. The 22 years of development have created a writing studio which is deceptively simple with a wealth of power and features similar to and in a lot of ways (at least in my opinion) far superior to Scrivener’s features. Ulysses can handle any writing task I throw at it without having to jump through the UI hoops Scrivener puts in my way.

I guess we are all so different in terms of what we need our writing software to do for us. And this is what makes me nervous about Aeon adding such functionality. As I said, the development requests would simply multiply.

#8

I agree with you on this front. Having more space to write a Summary or outline a character’s motivation would be beneficial. Although I tend to use Ulysses’ material sheets to do this.

True, although I do wonder what the point of building a word processor inside Aeon would be on that basis. If it were to add a larger writing window, then I can see keeping Ulysses and Scrivener sync would work. If such a word processor feature was implemented to replace Scrivener or Ulysses, at least for some users, I think the offering of three options might appear confused.

One thing is for sure, it’s good to be debating these topics on this forum. A vibrant community is only ever a good thing for both software and its users. So thank you for reviving the spirit of @SCN’s initial idea.

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#9

For me, it would allow everything to be in the same place. If I have things in multiple places, I inevitably forget to update something, make a mistake, or find a contradiction. And then sometimes I can’t remember which one is right.

Syncing with the Scrivener metadata helps, but then I feel like my workflow is broken because I have to stop and sync things, or worse the sync doesn’t work and I need to fix it.

While I hope the update fixes some of the sync issues, it isn’t perfect either. I have my characters listed by their birth-date on the side, and in the inspector when they’re linked to other characters. In Scrivener their order is from the ‘custom’ setting on the side, and in the meta data it’s random.

Example- Alice and Bob’s children are Claire, Dennis, and Ed, in that order.

In Scrivener it lists them for Alice as Dennis, Claire, and then Ed.

For Bob it’s Ed, Claire, and then Dennis.

Not only are both different, they aren’t in the order I have them in Aeon. Now that is frustrating and confusing.

If the word processor was in Aeon then it would be able to keep my character order as I want it on the side, or allow me to change the order around if I need too. I can’t with Scrivener.

Similarly, Scrivener shows all of the synced categories in meta-data. They aren’t filtered out like in Aeon. So if I go to he page of a town, there are spaces to write in who a character’s mother is. Which doesn’t work because that’s a place, not a character, and so it’s wasted space clogging up my data. It gets to the point where syncing it and keeping it straight is more confusing to me than just not bothering to at all.

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#10

I appreciate the shared thoughts. Understandably, the tendency is to look at things from each participant’s perspective. I’m certainly no different.

I was looking at it from the point of view of the Aeon Timeline enterprise rather than from my own particular needs as a writer. Over the decades, I’ve launched successful businesses and nonprofit organizations (NGOs), so I tend to think like an entrepreneur. That’s what I was doing when I started the conversation a couple of years ago.

I suggested that AT3 could expand its market share in the vast writer community by evolving into a robust plotting and writing app. Right now, it’s on the fringes of that community, from what I can tell.

Great discussion!

#11

afaIcs these are primarily issues with Scrivener and secondarily issues with sync. There’s an underlying issue with incompatible data models.

I agree it’s on the fringe of the genre writing community (more or less the only one I see online) - but most don’t need it’s USP. It’s also on the fringe of other communities such as legal and historical research.

I don’t believe it ever had the potential to be one of the mainstream writing apps. Its focus on its timeline feature is very different to the focus needed for a writing app.

I can see that sync with dominant apps seemed like the best way to go. Although I don’t remember sync ever being trouble-free. It feels as if there are ever more writing apps and even L&L are developing one; I don’t know if that’s true: there were always a lot of writing apps just off the radar and some are presumably fading out of existence (though I did see someone refer to currently using Liquid Story Binder recently). I don’t sync is really the answer - I don’t believe it can ever be perfect and there are too many potential targets.

I currently use Lattics. I do use its new relatively simple timeline feature. But did I use AT for those needs before I used Lattics? No! I’d use tables or spreadsheets or outlines or nothing - the prime need was/is simplicity and speed.

On those occasions I do need to use AT, I find it simplest to use ride both horses and simply copy information from AT as needed. In these situations AT needs a lot of setting up and the extra effort to move the info manually isn’t proportionally that great. Better, more flexible, exports might sometimes make this easier.

#12

Good points.

But that’s just it. What is a story but a series of events along a timeline? I think if novelists had AT’s visualization tools together with an integrated writing component, and if it were marketed properly, it could vastly expand its market reach.

Sure, authors could have this now with AT3 and Scrivener/Ulysses, and I’m personally happy with this solution. But, as I said, I’m not thinking about this from my perspective, but from that of the developer; almost none of my writer friends in the writing groups I’m part of have heard of Aeon Timeline, and they haven’t a clue why they would use it. But if it were a “writing app,” especially if it were rebranded with a more “writerly” name (think “Plttr” but something equally as cool), it would draw some real attention.

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#13

And an integrated word processor would fix that. It doesn’t really make sense that we’re ok with connecting Aeon to a program that works with it, but clearly has issues, and yet are not ok with a native word processor that won’t be as powerful, but will work more seamlessly.

I would give up Scrivener to work within Aeon if I can have all my info right there.

Again, Aeon is already more than just a timeline program. You can integrate characters, places, magic systems. We have mindmaps, and linked relationships, and custom fields that let us put anything we want down! Plus the appeal is that it’s the best timeline app available, and I haven’t found anything else even close.

But if I want to write more than a paragraph about something then I need to open Scrivener or Google Docs or even a basic txt file. It feels incomplete.

Also - Summaries syncs between the two. Who’s to say that a Page view won’t sync with Scrivener eventually and let us use both that way?

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#14

For most writers the details of the timeline are irrelevant, merely occasional colour in a sentence. Better represented, and with much less effort, by the traditional outline.

And other ways of looking at the sequence are more important than an event timeline. One of the reasons Plottr offers so many templates - Hero’s Journey, Story Circle etc.

Yep, I can understand that.

This could be seen as an illustration of the ‘give them an inch and they’ll want a mile’ perspective.

Exactly. This is the USP. And its utility ranges much writer than writing fiction.
It brings its own burden and constraints. It’s necessarily complex with multiple options.

I’ll compare it with the Lattics timeline feature, purely because I know it. It has Lanes and Tracks; Events (which can be Notes or Document Text) can be placed in them with a precise start and end time. There are colour, shape and icon options. And that’s basically it. Anything further would have to be put in by you - for instance, making a lane for characters with tracks for each character (though that would be problematic as it would be hard to enter the same event for two characters) or by using tags. It’s very quick and easy (you can just drag notes or text in and set the time), but the minute your needs are more complex it will creak and then not do what you need. And that’s where AT comes in. It can tackle those more complex needs; it’s not tied into a writing project.

Sadly it has many pockets of potential users, but getting the message to them isn’t easy. And overall number is way below that of a mega successful writing program like Ulysses or Scrivener (though possibly not below some less successful writing programs). The cost of development and maintenance has to be covered by this smaller number of users and the different pockets may not share the same view of the best development pathway.

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#15

Aw shucks, thanks for that!

It looks like there is a nice, passionate community here with some great ideas, so please keep them coming. However, becoming a fully fledged writing program isn’t our intention right now.

There is the potential to add a lightweight text view to help with viewing, importing, and exporting data, but it wouldn’t be intended to add a new purpose to the app.

We think there are many more ways timelines could help people with story development and writing that haven’t been realised yet so we’ll keep the main focus on the core features for the time being.

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#16

Also, full disclosure. I am not a developer myself and my role is on the communication side of things, so I don’t have the full picture of the development plans for the future of the app.

I’ll do my best to act as an intermediary between this passionate community and our small and equally passionate dev team, but I won’t always have all the answers :sweat_smile:

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#17

One other community that works with precise timelines is the genealogy community.
Usually it works with programs or websites where a single family tree is the main feature. That is the main concern, but most results during research aren’t don’t easily fit on that tree, even when eventually they prove to have a relationship with it. And then those programs become too restrictive.

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#18

This seems contradictory to me. So would you prefer these extras be taken away because they don’t go with the core concept of a timeline, or do you want to keep them because a timeline alone is truly never enough when doing such in-depth research as to need such an intricate tool?

While I admit I would love if a full writing program were implemented, I do know that Aeon has a small team, and I don’t want to waste resources to work on other ‘purposes’ of the app.

I am not suggesting Scrivener 4.0. Just the equivalent of Notepad with rich text formatting. While I personally would use it for writing chapters or characters bios, others would probably keep using Scrivener. But I think those others would still be able to highly benefit from a large area to add notes, or relevant information, that isn’t stuck in the sidebar and can’t be formatted.

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#19

I agree. The Timeline view hasn’t been helpful for me as a novelist – I almost never use it. I use the other views extensively, including for tracking my story beats (in my case, Save the Cat! story beats).

#20

That’s good to hear. Novelists are by far Aeon Timeline’s biggest user base, at least according to this informal poll a couple of years ago on the Facebook Group.

poll
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